NetNews Offline 2/NetNews Offline Volume 2.iso/news/comp/sys/amiga/programmer/6602

Internet Message Format | 1996-08-05 | 11.2 KB

Path: Inter.NL.net!hguijt
From: [e-mail] (H.Guijt)
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.programmer
Subject: Re: Say *perhaps* to fat binaries
Date: 31 Mar 1996 14:36:13 GMT
Organization: Inter.NL.net, The Internet Provider in The Netherlands.
Message-ID: <4jm58t$[e-mail]>
NNTP-Posting-Host: hatert.nijmegen.inter.nl.net
X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2]


>refer to what I wrote somewhere else in this thread. Don't stick to that
>PPC/68k stuff, I want resources etc. to be included and dynamically
>linked.

'dynamic linking' excludes 'including', I'm afraid. And why would a great
deal of stuff be put in the executable? My manager wants to make the splash
screen of our application part of the binary. I think he is insane; it loads
at the start, displays for 10 seconds, and is never used again. Of course it
will continue to eat 300Kb of memory...

>Have you ever made an attempt to do graphics output on a graphics printer
>like deskekts or laser printers (w/o postscript)? Or which OS is better?
>Unix? TeX-Fan, eh?

I've printed graphics lots of times. I didn't realise it doesn't work with
Amiga OS, otherwise I would never have done so.

>I don't want to use *any* mice when I *type in a text*. And even when I

I can type text for hours without using my mouse. Many PC applications give
you heaps of requesters though, and I find that wading through those with
the keyboard is a pain.

There are times when a mouse is an appropriate device and times when it
isn't. When I want to scroll through a large text I use the mouse to pick up
the scrollbar and move it. BTW: how can I control a scrollbar under Windows
using the keyboard?

>use the mouse, it's often faster to use the keyboard with the left hand as
>an accelerator. Years ago I worked with DOS-based programs fully
>controlled with short cuts and keyboard driven interfaces. I'm still using
>the Norton Commander (much better than any Windows File Manager) and
>QEdit, both much faster than I do in graphical environments today. (I'm
>still looking for an equivalent to NC or MC (Linux) on the Amiga). Unix

You must be kidding. NC is a pile of crud. I would trade it any day for Disk
Master or even DOpus.

An NC clone is available for Amiga, BTW. It's just as crap as on the PC, so
it might fit your taste.

>users won't use a mouse unless they're forced to, just because it's simply
>slower to look for the pointer and search for an icon than to press some
>simple keys. And it's still slower if you always have to change between
>keyboard and mouse.

*Now* I get it. You are talking about single-window applications. How about
if you want to switch between windows? Any UNIX owner I know will grab his
mouse. Only PC owners are happy with the keyboard, but that is because they
cannot easily remove a window from sight (no 'toback') and in general lack
the screenspace UNIX users enjoy on their 20" monitors.

Your problem is that you are still stuck in the Text Mode Days.

>Well, then just built these features in the OS. (I'm also using
>CycleToMenu)

Not everything should be in the OS. I think most people would agree that
CycleToMenu would be a nice addition, but features like sunmouse,
clicktofront, and many others should be optional. I don't particularly care
if optional features come from Escom or Aminet, but I do care if the OS has
to come on 1Mb ROM just because it has to support ten methods of clicking a
window to front.

>>>inner representation of the GUI system is totally out of date. IBM made
>an
>>>effort to reach user friendliness in 1991 with the Common User Access
>Style

BTW, I didn't point it out before, but you are mixing the inner
representation of the GUI with it's outward appearance (user friendliness).

>>>Guide. This guide contained notebook-like property boxes and containers
>(for
>>>icon boxes, tree views and a spreadsheet-like view). And Windows

What's worse, you are mixing that with GUI features which is again something
else.

>included
>>>most of them in 95. Not the Amiga.
>>
>>No, the Amiga had them since time immemorial. *WE* are not stuck with
>string

>*WHERE*? Proove!

I can ``proove'' we had a styleguide long ago. Would the ISDN number
suffice?

BTW, I was referring to user friendly user interfaces. I repeat, the Amiga
interface is a lot friendlier than the Windows interface.

>>gadgets that close your window when you press return (as happens far too
>>often in Windows applications).
>
>No, *we* often have to type in a text, then change to mouse and look for
>the OK gadget, just because some stupid programmers can't set the OK to
>return or tab-cycle to it.

This is a window I encounter after every PC crash (ie. about 7 times a day):

        Name:     x......
        Password: .......
        Connect:  .......

The cursor appears where the 'x' stands. I type 'Hans' (that's my name), and
hit return. The machine does not understand that I merely want to go to the
next field, but instead closes the window, tells me my login failed, and
that I am free to bugger off.

That's userfriendly?

In case you think this is fine; I had to reprogram the enter key to act like
the tab key just because my customers couldn't work with the machine
otherwise. And because this is done at a relatively high level (inside my
application only) this makes the machine highly inconsistent to work with.

If I wanted the Amiga-enter to act like the tab, it would do so consistently
throughout the machine, using a CycleToMenu like construction, and without
bothering anyone who doesn't want it on his machine.

>Ok, but what about the limited moving feature on the amiga? You can't move
>them out of the screens, unless you have EGS, can you? A detail I forgot
>on the list.

What about it? I find myself struggling far more often with windows that are
outside the visible area than I find myself wishing for the ability to do so
- primarily because I can remove an Amiga window from view with a simple
click on 'toback'.

>>And then there is the dropdown listboxes that always open *with the same,
>>wrong size*.
>Is it worse than a (non CycleToMenu-) CycleGadget, where you have to click
>several times to set the option you want and where you always see just one
>option at a time?

Yes, far worse. Cycle gadgets should contain at most 3 or 4 items, so you
can cycle through them in a limited amount of time. Under Windows it is
customary to have 50-60 items in there, in a listbox that shows only 5
lines, on a screen that would comfortably support 30.

My favorite listbox has 7 items in a listbox 1 line tall.

Even better: when listboxes get smaller than 3 lines you cannot see the
scrollbar anymore, so you lack any possible clue that the listbox contains
more than just the lines you can see.

>>And windows that open with their titlebar hidden below the
>>taskbar (yes, I use windows 95).
>I heard there was an option to turn that off (I'm using WfW).
                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
*WHERE*? Proove!

>You cannot expect your old applications to support these features, just as
>you cannot expect GraphiCraft to do 24 Bit ;)

Here is another good one: one of our customers' machines ran our application
extremely slowly (30 seconds to open a window, 8 seconds to retrieve data
that could have been retrieve in 0.5). We found out that this was because
windows was using 32-bit device drivers. When we set it to 16-bit drivers
suddenly it was back to its normal speed!

That's even worse than just not supporting stuff...

>I'm talking of the IBM style guide, which is written for OS/2. And besides
>some users of Borland compilers, all software companies I know stick to
>the "positive -> left, negative -> right" buttons.

All except Powersoft and Microsoft then.

How about this: I start a program that believes (mistakenly) that I could
work better if Microsoft Exchange were installed. First it shows a requester
saying that Microsoft Exchange isn't installed, which is correct. I cancel
it using the rightmost button. Then it shows a requester explaining that
there are no profiles, and that I can start Microsoft exchange if I want a
profile. I cancel that too, but this time I have to use the leftmost button!
Then it shows a final requester telling me that I can always come back in
the future if I suddenly feel the need to install Microsoft Exchange. There
is only one button on this requester, otherwise it too would have been
wrong.

>>What you say about BOOPSI is complete bullshit.
>Even MUI has to break with the style guide to implement some features (I
>cannot imagine which ones -- I deleted MUI because of its lack of speed ;)

You are changing the subject. And I do not believe MUI breaks anything from
the styleguide (the styleguide does not forbid the use of non-gadtools
gadgets).

And the latest version of MUI (3.3) is not slow by any means.

>(and mind your language)

You write down some remarks about BOOPSI and I describe the value of your
thoughts with the only appropriate word. Sorry if that offends you.

>>No, you'd rather have that great windows API (GetWindowLong (Window, -16)
>>anyone?)...
>
>Thank God you won't have to use these direct API calls, because thei're
>all encapsulated by excellent class libraries like MFC or OWL. Show me
>such a library on the Amiga! I'll take back many of my complaints. Or are

Try MUIRexx. You can make complete window interfaces using simple ARexx
scripts. It's available on Aminet, dev/gui I think.

It's not a class library but it shows you can program the Amiga without
bothering with intuition or boopsi.

>*you* still programming in C??

After I mentioned Powerbuilder some 10 times you might have guessed what I
program in. It encapsulates all parts of Windows (so much so that a
Powerbuilder application can run on Macintosh or UNIX/X without changes).
However, like all big Windows systems it is not quite perfect so I need
tricks like the one above to get it to do what I want.

Something else: if you want a different interface noone will be offended if
you write a class library for the Amiga.

>>So you can change dialog boxes in Windows - big deal. Now try hacking
>*real
>>windows*. Oops - you can't.
>
>Even no prob with a class lib.

Just a moment ago we were talking about how great it was that USERS can
hack Windows, but suddenly you need access to the source (ie. the class
library) to change stuff. That's something completely different.

>>Pen and filltype selection? Mind explaining *where*?
>what, where?

**Pen and filltype selection**? Mind explaining where you want that
implemented and what it should do?

>>New ASL? What should it contain?
>ie. directory trees, extension selection by a given list...

``please make the Amiga just like Windows, otherwise we are the only ones
suffering''

The amiga does not have extensions, remember? Filenames like "my reply..."
and even "." and ".." are perfectly valid.

I generally use prefixes for filetype (ie. gif.Picture 1, jpeg.Picture 2,
iff.Picture 3). That's much clearer than postfixes.

Having specific support in the OS for features that will allow users to
pretend they are using DOS - well, I'm glad it doesn't exist!

>I'm using AOL because there's no AOL client for the Amiga and it's a fast
>ISP and a good online service. And don't forget the Amiga logo to the left
>;)

This is a fascinating statement. It shows quite clearly you are, as I
suspected, a PC user come to comp.sys.amiga just to fan the flames.


Bye,

Hans